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I’m sorry but it sounds like this guy is “reinventing the wheel” only the original wheel was made by Firestone. The new gear does have a few more options than other past commercial gear but for me, if this gear is not playable outside during sunny days (ie: uses the TSOP-style IR modules), do the added features really matter if you cannot hit your opponents further than 10 ft. in the sunshine? Or even worse, if you are standing in the shade and your opponent can hit you at 800 ft while your he or she is untouchable, wide open in the sunshine. I guess that the ESS gear has spoiled me, but non-sunshine compatible tag gear is like being offered a newly designed Lamborghini at a reasonable price, but to keep the costs down, the designers didn’t include a place to add wheels.

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Well, one of those problems (the range) is addressed in your post. Next:

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I'd have to agree with *****. Full sunlight range is of supreme importance.
I'm also not interested without some kind of 360 degree sensor on the person. A big problem with having -only- the sensor on the gun (which is not an innovation as it seems to be portrayed) is that you get only 180 degrees at best. Their body blocks the rest, and during play people instinctively act to guard their sensor.

I like the LCD display, ID'd guns, game options, etc. but we've got those and more now. And will the signal info be made available so we can make our own additions like mines and such? Unlikely.

From what I can see on their website, it also says "screw you" to nerdy kids like me who wear glasses. I'm not sure I want a "heads up" display blocking my vision or a head mounted thingy making noises in my ears. I recall the WoW Lazer Tag helmet, and how no one over the age of 6 wanted to wear it because you couldn't hear anything but it's pulse.

As a kid's toy, for the under 10 or 12 crowd, no head sensor, no cord is an asset. Cool looking headpiece with distracting blinky lighty noisy bits is a good thing.

But for the rest of us, it's a distraction and a detraction.

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This brings up a good problem with the HUD which will affect around 25 million potential customers (I estimate here, as approximately 65 million americans wear corrective lenses) I would seriously consider rethinking the HUD "sunglasses" look. Next:

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How can people who put so much money into a project not do the market research that would clearly show people (kids as well as adult) want
1) to play in the daylight outdoors.
2) to not be frustrated by cheating players
This new stuff has taken care of every problem but the 2 big ones. All the extra features are very very cool though.

If I am mistaken and this can be used outdoors in the sunlight, then why are they not making it clear in their advertisements?

The only way to stop cheating players is some kind of locked on/off switch AND more sensors than you have free hands or avaialable objects. That usually means 3 or 4 sensors sites, head and gun, chest/back optional.

I just wish Steradian or BFS would go to an Asian mass producer and get their excellent outdoor gear mass produced to under $100 a gun.

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Competition for the future, but competition makes for better business... Next:

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Like some kind of IR based controller. Set up the game at the beginning, and in addition it has some kind of weak encryption. That way someone with a 2nd controller can't just sneak it in and reset their gun, as if they do then their gun won't work during that game.
It was clear from that letter that sunlight play was only a potential for the next iteration. It sounds to me like this is short range, indoor or night gear. Big whoop.

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Did anyone even read the letter? 300-400 feet in sunlight! Next:

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The features may not be novel, but on a mass marketed commercial gear they are better then what has been released to date (meaning how configurable not in terms of shooting distance and reliability). Before we complain too much on gear which hasn't been released, he says something in the email which we should be GLAD to hear.
quote in a quote
_________________
BTW, if anyone wanted to clue me in to their "real requirements" for
using LT gear in their LARPG's I will keep it in mind as I develop
the new system -- things such as:
(1) Under what conditions to you really use the LT gear -- all hours
all weather indoors and out, only at night in darkened rooms, or
something in between?
(2) What kind of range and firing rate do you need under worst-case
conditions (outdoors at high noon in summer)?
(3) Is just a WoW-compatibility mode enough or should it also support
Tiger LT (sorry, Laser Challenge is out of the question due to patent
reasons) and/or compatability with the homebrew systems?
(4) Are there any special features which would make you grin from ear
to ear, etc.?
(5) Any other information you care to put before me, I will consider
and try to accomodate as we move forward.
/quote
__________________

He wants our input. I don't recall any other developers of COMMERCIAL Laser Tag gear asking for OUR input. He wants to know what WE want, while he is going to make it. You notice he says he wants to know if we want compatibility with homebrew gear. Well, it seems it would be nice to have it compatible with some of the more popular home made or in the works home made gear coming out.

Also, this is one of the first times I've seen developers post on a message board (the adequate one in particular).

While THIS release of the gear may not be entirely to our likings, by spring 2005, if we ask politely and give useful feedback, we could have a gear we all wouldn't mind using that establishes a common ground for LT gear for commercial and home made usage.

Let's not complain, lets get thinking and organized

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Now we're talking. Next:

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But, it's so fun to grumble and gripe.
You are absolutely correct.

I'd say ESS compatability is very important. It's the closest to a standard in homebrew gear. I'm looking at using data transmission over stock ESS frequencies that will still allow ESS to shoot and be shot without having to send several shots in different protocols one after another.

Holtek makes remote control encoder/decoder ICs that use PWM of data. The clock in the encoder when set at 1800Hz will result in an 1800Hz signal that is pulse width modulated to send 0's and 1's. So a 567 PLL should lock on to it, regardless of data sent. The carrier is generated externally so they're suited to both IR and to RF for a possible wireless gun/sensor link. Futurlec has the HT12D (decoder) and HT12E (you guessed it, encoder) for only $1.50 each or 25 for $30. Anyway, I'll post that in another thread.

Distance in full sunlight is of paramount importance. If they sell $30 to $50 Lazer Tag guns that have all those features and shoot 450 feet in full noon summertime sunlight, I think they'd have a winner. Especially if it is hackable and can be used with ESS gear.

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I am going to bundle up all the things spoken of here (without names) and email them to tagferret ijn case he hasnt seen them yet. I am planning on buying a full complement of this stuf as soon as it is released, so here is my invitation: Any time in July that I have free, lets set up another bremerbattle to be played using the new gear. This way we can see how well the system functions, what it's drawbacks are, etc... And at no cost to all of you out there who make it here (Actually, there wil be the cost of fuel and batteries.) Well I am off to post an attendance board on my site.

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WAIT, THAT WAS ME! Heh, Sinistrahd out.

Since the original posts all came from the board at http://members5.boardhost.com/lazertag/ I have posted individually to (most of) them there, so if anyone is trying to follow this thread, please check it out.

It's amazing the great websites that a search DOESN't turn up, or maybe are pushed all the way to the end of the list of 15 million porn-site hits...

Anyway, I hope everybody will keep thinking about the things you'd like to see, and please feel free to post anything you think I'll find of interest whether it be links to local clubs, tactical pointers, things you do and don't like in your tag gear, rough jokes, or whatever "Strike while the iron's hot!" and all that!

http://members5.boardhost.com/lazertag/msg/10030.html

>The new gear does have a few more options than other past
>commercial gear

I have to stay mum on a few of the details until it is available at retail, but I think you will find it offers a LOT more options than were previously available at mass market, and a much better user interface.

>but for me, if this gear is not playable outside during
>sunny days... do the added features really matter if
>you cannot hit your opponents further than 10 ft.

It is quite functional in ALL conditions, except maybe underwater! We do all of our testing in the middle of the day in hot parking lots with a mixture of blazing sun and shaded areas, to make sure it works well under those conditions. In fact, Tiger's documentation reccomends AGAINST playing at night (for safety reasons), and the 250 foot range is far more than anyone need indoors. There is an indoor/outdoor switch to keep from "splattering" your teammates in close quarters, BTW.

>I'm also not interested without some kind of 360 degree
>sensor on the person.

While this is not available on the first offering, it is almost certainly going to be incorporated into future designs.

>I like the LCD display, ID'd guns, game options, etc. but
>we've got those and more now.

Agreed! But the point is, now it will be available on systems costing much less, which hopefully helps a lot more people get into this sport, and will certainly raise public awareness of us. Personally, I think the homebrew/hacked systems will ALWAYS be a bit ahead of anything we (the toy business) can produce commercially, because those systems don't have the brutal pricing structure we have to live under at mass retail. But what I'm trying to do is capture as much of it as I can while keeping it affordable.

>And will the signal info be
>made available so we can make our own additions like mines
>and such? Unlikely.

Officially, probably not. But hackers are such ingenious people, I'm sure my prized communications format won't stay a secret for long! At any rate, it will all eventually be avaialable in the patents when they are published.

>From what I can see on their website, it also says "screw
>you" to nerdy kids like me who wear glasses. I'm not sure I
>want a "heads up" display blocking my vision or a head
>mounted thingy making noises in my ears.

The Heads-Up Display is optional, you can unplug it and play without it (you still have all information both audio and visual available to you, through a mutable internal speaker and the LCD).

>How can people who put so much money into a project
>not do the market research that would clearly show people
>(kids as well as adult) want
>1) to play in the daylight outdoors.
>2) to not be frustrated by cheating players

As mentioned before, it works quite well outdoors in bright sunlight -- at least to about 250 feet, I've been getting more like 350-400 feet most of the time with the early units coming off of the assembly line.

The anti-cheat features are rather extensive, including all that you've mentioned plus some. It's not cheat-proof, but it'll take a lot more to cheat the system than most cheaters would be willing to put into it. Of course, you could still cover up the receiver (on these early designs without back sensors), but that's blatant and it's easy to call a foul on someone for that and boot them from the game. As a big fan of on-line First Person Shooters, I absolutely loathe cheaters and tried to do everything I reasonably could to keep them from messing up the games.

>If I am mistaken and this can be used outdoors in the
>sunlight, then why are they not making it clear in their
>advertisements?

Actually, this whole thing got rolling because of a post I made (here!) asking about how people were really using the WoW gear in LARPG's, in an effort to determine which groups of LT users wanted which features -- it wasn't an advertisement, it was more along the lines of "market research". Sorry if it confused anybody!

>It was clear from that letter that sunlight play was only a
>potential for the next iteration. It sounds to me like this
>is short range, indoor or night gear. Big whoop.

>Did anyone even read the letter? 300-400 feet in sunlight!
lmao -- I was wondering about that myself by the time I got here!
:-D
Seriously, it's an easy misunderstanding -- someone read the question I asked about what ranges the the WoW compatability mode (assuming I can work one in) would have to work at in order to be usefull to LARPG's in broad sunlight, and misconstrued that as meaning that it did not yet work in sunlight rather than that it did not yet have a WoW compatability mode. Other people picked up on this and thought it was an established fact rather than speculation. Happens all the time! I'm just glad we managed to jump on it during the first day (can you BELEIVE how fast rumors spread? lol), so we don't get too much misinformation out there!

http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/virtualeclipselrp/message/215

If anyone wants to know more about the system that what they've seen here on Adequate.com, please follow that link.

I regualrly check in her, on that group, and at the Lazer Tactical Action Games Board at:

http://members5.boardhost.com/lazertag/index.html

if anyone has specific questions or issues thay want to discuss.